Dave
Royle
Gandalf -
Friend of Frodo Baggins
Registered:
Dec 2002
Location: Springs South Africa
Posts: 211
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Hi
Lisa
I would like to attempt to answer on behalf of Moriel
– the South African bit anyway. Moriel doesn’t have
a rule book or statement policy book all we have is a
small statement of faith. Otherwise we would have a
library to fill. What we do have is the use of
Hermeneutics when it comes to dealing with scripture.
And that means dealing with scripture in its context of
surrounding verses. We try not to read into scripture,
this is called eisegesis and is often used by
individuals to prove text a point of view by taking
various scriptures out of context to prove a philosophy
of some kind. I don’t know if Jacob would want to add
further to my comments but he's welcome to anyway.
I have taken some of your questions and lined them up.
So after each comment or question you asked I will give
a comment. Please forgive my typing errors, remember we
do not have spelling mistakes on the message board. I
have also placed an article after this that I believe is
a balanced biblical look at generational curses
Would you be willing to share Moriel's position on the
way or ways a Christian may give place to the devil?
Look at the context of the quote from Ephesians 4v27.
The word for place or opportunity is ‘Topos’ in the
Greek. It means occasion or occupancy. Paul is speaking
on this instance in v17 of the ‘futility of your
minds’, v18’Darkened in your understanding”’
then he goes on in verse by verse speaking of our
attitudes. He uses such words as callousness, sensuality
etc, THEN he says, do not give place to the devil; it is
in these areas that the verse gains its context. Again
this fits in with the next point below. So not giving in
to the devil is to remain in an attitude where you are
not sensual, not callous, where your understanding is
not darkened. To give way to the devil is to take upon
you the attitudes Paul speaks against
What is Moriel's position on Satan's devices? Christians
are not to be ignorant of them.
From Ephesians 6:11. The word for Devises or wiles is
‘Methodeia’, where we get the English word method
from. It can mean trickery, scheming and a way of
travelling over. Satan comes in several forms, as an
angel of light, the dragon that makes war on the saints
but the serpent is his most cunning of his disguises as
he seduces the saints into false philosophies and
doctrines. In 2Corinthians 10 : 3 –5, it tells us WHAT
we battle against in Spiritual warfare, They are v5
“Destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised
up against the knowledge of Christ and we are taking
every thought captive into the obedience of Christ”
This is true spiritual warfare according to scripture.
That is the preaching of the gospel, the pursuit of a
holy life and obedience to the master. I would say that
being aware of the devils wiles would be awareness that
he is a seducer who wants us to walk after the flesh and
speculate on mythologies such as hyperdemonology. The
spiritual warfare movement is nothing more than a
christianised version of Dungeons and dragons. Real
Spiritual warfare is very difficult because as you
battle men’s philosophies, lofty thoughts and preach
the gospel you can face rejection because this is done
on a personal level. It is easy to spend time binding
and loosing non-existent entities, the word Paul uses in
Greek means ‘nothings’. While the church does this
less time is spent on the real problem.
What is Moriel's position on renouncing the works of
darkness and reproving them? Nowhere did Paul hint that
fear of Satan had anything to do with this. Satan fears
US and what we can accomplish for God's kingdom if we do
this.
Again what you state is modern Christian myth and not
biblical doctrine. The rule of hermeneutics is that we
keep things simply to the text and not read into them
things which are not there. I believe you are quoting
from Romans 13:12? In that case look again at the
context, no evil imps, spirits or elves just the works
of the flesh. The truth is, Satan does not need to send
his hordes after us, we battle against our own desires
– the flesh. We do so badly in this area that our own
lusts are our downfall.
Most evangelical churches say that no matter what a
Christian does, he will not give place to the devil.
That is why they will not speak out about the occult
explosion in their very midst.
The occult explosion is very real and you are correct
that many in Christendom remain uneducated to the false
religions out there, even within the church we see New
Age philosophies coming in but again it is the
philosophies we battle against.. Most people adopt these
belief systems usually because of their lust for power
and sensuality; again we see that it is the flesh. All
that Satan does is provide a contact point for the
person to get hooked. Most Christian churches are wrong
when they say no matter what a Christian does he will
not give place to the devil. Let me give an example, I
am ministering to some Northern Sotho ladies who are
bare breasted. Does the devil send an evil spirit to
seduce me? No of course not, I have to engage discipline
and cry to the Lord for his sufficiency. The flesh does
it all.
Many churches also do not believe a Christian should
know about Satan's devices because if he does, that
gives glory to Satan. It does not give glory to him to
know how not to be devoured by him.
To some point I agree, but there again we have the
context of devises. I think that most churches would
warn of the devises I have mentioned and that we need to
live Holy obedient lives. They will not mention curses,
evil spirits etc because in themselves they are nothing
but the foothold you give them. Claire pointed out
correctly that in themselves they are wood, stone,
shapes etc. hers an absurd example. If what you say
about shapes is true, then there are thousands of shapes
in Nature which we should not even bother with. That
includes flowers, snowflakes. When it snows as it has
been doing for our friends in the states what do they
do? Get out the good symbols and crucifixes, plea the
blood of the Lamb? No of course not, that kind of
mindset is set in the same method as witches. Potions,
symbols, shapes, words said in the right order. In
effect we have invented a christianised witchcraft.
This is has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with
being a holy and useable vessel for the Lord rather than
being hindered because of reasons we are not allowed to
find out about because the people who pay big money in
the church don't want this preached about.
I think that a more appropriate word than fear would be
‘respect’. Look at the epistle of Jude; the Gnostics
were doing what many with this belief system do today.
They were reviling angelic majesties v8. We see in v9
that not even the mighty angel Michael did not dare
pronounce against him a railing judgement but said the
Lord rebuke you. Whether we like it or not, Satan was
created a magnificent, beautiful mighty Angel of God
with great power and dignity. We respect what God
created, he id Gods Satan and whether Satan likes it or
not God is sovereign and uses Satan to His own ends. Any
rebuking of Satan or other fallen Angels is not
something we are called to do. Yes the Devil will flee,
but look at the context of the verse again in James 4:1
–7. James is talking about the very same issues Paul
wrote about – the flesh and its desires and the
philosophies we take on board. Notice also it says
“Submit to God” (Obedience) Resist the Devil
(Don’t take on board these things) THEN he will flee,
our position must be founded in what God does. Maybe
some one else can help but I find nowhere in scripture
that says Satan is scared of us? The bible says Demons
tremble because of their belief, but if Satan is scared
then why is he roaring like a Lion and as Jacob often
says, if the Devil keeps getting bound then who keeps
letting him out?
I just wanted to let you know I am leaving peacefully,
but I thought about a couple of verses in reference to a
couple of your statements.
"Moriel does not believe evil spirits are seeking
you out,"
God's Word says the devil is seeking Christians out. Yes
but not evil spirits, remember the context of all these
verses
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary
the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking
whom he may devour:
Yes be sober, be vigilant, not to do so is silly, but
remember the context, Peter is speaking to a church
under severe persecution were the temptation was to give
up the faith, he is speaking about the flesh and its
weakness under persecution. Remember all a Christian has
to do was sacrifice to Caesar and he was out of there.
All Satan wanted was for the Christian to throw his salt
over his shoulder and say ‘Cease is Lord” and like a
roaring lion he would be in there.
"I don't feel God has called us to live in fear,
always be on the lookout, someone or something evil is
out to get you - that's fear and is not of God."
Why do we believe a healthy fear is undesirable? After
all we fear God? The fear that we speak of is a healthy
respect that can keep you alive. Yes I do respect the
devil, he wants to make me fall 99.9% of the time he
will let my weaknesses do it for me. Sometimes he may
whisper in my ear ‘look at that women there’. He may
send someone as he did with Peter to say ‘is this
really Gods will for you”. Yes I live in a healthy
fear for my self and my family because I know like Paul
that the things I know I should do I don’t do and the
things I know I shouldn’t do, I do”.
God's Word says that we must be sober and vigilant
(watchful).
Yes but for those things in the context of scripture not
elves and imps.
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